How do we measure experience?

I am compelled to write this diary because Obama supporters continue to make this false claim that if Hillary is going to refer to her 35 years of experience she must take responsibility for all of the legislation passed during Bill Clinton's presidency.

Here is an example of the type of comment I am referring to:

"Also, Clinton's message has serious flaws: She said she had 35 years of experience, which includes her time in the White House when NAFTA was signed by her husband. But she is acting like she is not responsible for NAFTA. She wants it both ways. The truth of the matter is that if she claims the 35 years experience, then logically NAFTA is part of it. She must take responsibility." by maymok

I've been trying to respond to these arguments individually but too many are making the same claim -- it has become a BO talking point -- and so I wanted to explain the fallacy of the argument.

Women who are married to man who hold high positions are not responsible for the decisions and actions of their husbands. Hillary Clinton does not thing NAFTA is a good trade bill and didn't, in fact, like it at the time that Bill, her husband, was signing it into law. That she held a different opinion from her husband does not invalidate the experience she acquired as First Lady of the United States. When Hillary refers to her 35 years of experience she is not claiming that she has experience as president of the United States, but that she has experience as First Lady of the United States. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand.

As first lady, Hillary had an office in the west wing and she had an agenda of progressive causes that she worked to accomplish, she visited nations and heads of state, she worked day in and out to advance the cause of women, children, minorities and the sick and disabled.

She also had the experience of seeing, first hand, what is required of the office of president of the united states. We are fortunate to have a candidate who fully understands the job which she is campaigning for and will be more able to take office and get started than someone less informed about the responsibilities of the president.

And, lastly, Hillary opposes NAFTA, wants to change it. She always has although as First Lady she confined her disagreement with the bill as a republican economic package to personal conversations with her husband. (As noted in two different biographies done on Hillary.)

What most disturbs me about the frequent claims by BO that Hillary can't claim experience for the years she was First Lady is that it is, at its very core, a sexist perspective. The wife has no identity or experience of her own. The fact that people repeat this argument, oblivious to the way it erases women's experience and their identities is deeply troubling. Apparently we feminists have much more work to do to establish the right of women to exist and have experiences all their own.



Display:


Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 1)

Did Hillary not say that NAFTA was one of the administration's "victories"? I think I remember reading that was an Obama talking point, but not sure if it is true or not.

That being said, I think it's at least fair to point out the inherent contradiction in trying to co-opt any of the administration's success (economic policy for instance), and then trying to distance yourself from any failures. How much did Hillary have to do with the economic/financial policies of the 90s?


by highgrade on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 02:47:38 AM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 4)

She had the experience of being a confident to her husband as he took a budget deficit and failing economy and turned it around. She was first lady of the white house during a time of economic expansion -- that is her experience.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 03:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This article covers it (2.00 / 1)


This article covers most of the "Hillary supported NAFTA" things. I think Obama attacking her on this is sketchy; a lot of what she is doing here is "ambassadorial" in nature. Was she touting NAFTA as a success? Yes, but I think it was more in the vein of "the was a way we triumphed legislatively" rather than, "This bill is great for the country."

Anyhow:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-siro ta/hillary-clinton-pretends-_b_86747.htm l


by mattw on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 03:32:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree (none / 0)

and Clinton's votes in the Senate on some trade measures also suggest that she has in general supported free trade.

The Clinton people do want to have it both ways on the experience question.  Hillary was in charge of one major effort in the 90's: Health Care reform.

The experience was a complete disaster - you can argue is was the single biggest cause of the loss of the House and Senate in 1994.  

I seldom see this experience addressed in a substantive way.  

I have to say, though, I have been shocked by the incompetence of her campaign.  Bill never made a mistake in a campaign that came close to Hillary's mistake on the license issue.  


by fladem on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:26:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree (2.00 / 3)

This is pure Obama spin BS and shows a world of intentional ignorance.  If you want to know what really happened in the 1990s read Barney Frank here on the fallout from the progressive tax reform the year before or read my diary here.  Stop $hitting on the progressive fights of the nineties.


by Mike Pridmore on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 2)

In terms of legislative experience. Clinton has less then Obama and if instead of repeating talking points anyone bothers to check actual legislative successes and sponsorships in the US Senate Obama has been as effective, if not more effective then Clinton. Check the congressional record for yourself all the bills are public record.

The first executive responsibility for a large enterprise either candidate has had is in building and running their Presidential campaigns and in this test Obama is showing more organizational, executive and leadership skills by far. The Clinton campaign has been a mismanaged disaster on so many levels it calls into question Hillary's executive abilities. Obama should not have had a chance and if Clinton managed her campaign more effectively he would not have had a chance.

Yes Hillary has spent more time in Washington and as first lady her biggest and most high profile responsibility was leading the push for health care reform which winded up a bigger disaster then the management of her campaign.

So claiming experience, incumbency and inevitability does not make it so. Hillary has been a great Senator but is she more experienced then or qualified then Obama? No.

Lastly she wants credit for the Clinton presidency, except for when it does not work in her favor. You can't have your cake and eat it to.


by hankg on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 07:04:21 AM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 1)

Just more misinformation.


by grlpatriot on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measun?re experience? (2.00 / 1)

The congressional record is misinformation?

The claim that Obama has managed his campaign better then Hillary has managed hers is misinformation?

Hillary on NAFTA in her own words:

"I think everybody is in favor of free and fair trade. I think NAFTA is proving its worth,"..."That's what a free and fair trade agreement like NAFTA is all about,"  [AP, 3/6/96]

"Mrs. Clinton vowed that her husband would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the Rio Grande Valley empowerment zone, which allows tax breaks to businesses that relocate to the border." [AP, 11/2/96]

Hillary Clinton "Touted" President Clinton's Support for NAFTA, Saying it Would Reap Widespread Benefit. On a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region." [United Press International, 11/1/96]


by hankg on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 11:41:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measun?re experience? (none / 0)

Your spin on the congressional record is incorrect. Hillary has sponsored, co-sponsored and passed more legislation than BO.

Whoever generated that phony list didn't do a fair an equitable comparison of records.

Plus, as we've already established the role of First Lady, whether of Arkansas or the United States, is an executive position. I know this point is very difficult for you guys...but Hillary has her own identity and experience.

That's why there are people that won't vote for BO because they don't want Michelle in the White House talking about how this is the first time she's proud of her country.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measun?re experience? (none / 0)

I did not say that First Lady was not an executive position but it is not of the magnitude of a national Presidential campaign or of the position of President itself. So there is no need to guess how they would do as executives of large enterprises we can see how they are doing right now. Ready on day one? She was not even ready for a primary challenge.

The biggest initiative (Health Care) that Hillary was responsible for while in the White House was hopelessly mismanaged and was a dismal failure.

The issue is not who has sponsored or co-sponsored more bills but whether they have a substantive record as legislators and they both do. The Obama as empty suit spin is a lot of hot air that does not hold up to simple fact checking.


by hankg on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 3)

YES, YES, YES

She needs to hit home again and again with the fact that she has FIRST LADY experience. Wonderful.

- - - and not only First Lady of the country, she was First Lady of Arkansas too (and First Lady of the Arkansas AG).

Beat that kind of experience you big meanie Obama!


by johngalt on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:51:16 AM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 0)

This is getting upmodded? Hillbots are officially irony-blind.


by amiches on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 3)

Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! Beautifully stated! Hillary is the change America needs!!!!


by susanclare on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:46:31 AM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 2)

Great diary. Thanks for clarifying the NAFTA misinformation campaign by Obama. He's a trixy fella.


by grlpatriot on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:27:05 AM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (1.33 / 3)

LOL. It's in the blood. This comment wins the poetry slam.


by grlpatriot on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:29:35 AM EST

The ones who mock the Clinton marriage... (2.00 / 2)

make me laugh.

In point of fact, they are simply wrong - I've always seen signs between the two of them of my marriage - which is first and foremost a love between friends and partners.

My husband and I are both attorneys and we share everything - particularly on tough legal issues.  And he has given me my best advice and (he says!) vice versa.

There is nothing that can't be discussed and agreed upon.  And in times of trouble, we just add some more discussion and get through the problems.

It's worked for 35 years.  And both of us are smarter for it!


by Shazone on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:50:23 AM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Simple math

Hillary claims 35 years of experience. She graduated from law school in 1973.

That's 35 years.
Does that mean that everything she's don since graduating is "experience"?

How is working as a corporate attorney or sitting on Walmart's board "experience" but working in the Illinois legislature not experience?


by poserM on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 11:49:17 AM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 1)

That's exactly what she means.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:02:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Being on Wal-Mart's board was not the only thing she did. One of the first things she did was go to Texas to register voters. She did much in the areas of public service and political areas after graduation.

Do you research before you post something so grossly misinformed.


by americanincanada on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

The poster didn't say that was the only thing she did. Read the comment you are responding to before posting so grossly misinformed.

And no-ones claiming she hasn't done some good stuff in her life. Working for the Childrens defense fund, in particular, is laudable.

But it doesn't extend to what she is claiming. Much of that so-called 35 years experience was indeed working as a corporate lawyer.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:46:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW (none / 0)

She has more impressive experience than just registering voters in Texas, but none of it amounts to the claims she's been making. She won't be any more "ready on day one" than Obama and she certainly isn't the most experienced non-incumbent to have ever run, as her husband claimed.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Women who are married to man who hold high positions are not responsible for the decisions and actions of their husbands.

Absolutely true. But equally true is they don't get credit for their husbands accomplishments. Unfortunately Hillary wants to have it both ways. She had 8 years experience as First Lady where she was able to use her position to buttonhole some bigtime people, but that hardle counts as Presidential experience (or even executive experience) or backs up the claim that she will be "ready on day one!" It certainly falls far short of backing up her husbands claim that she's the most experienced non-incumbent to have ever run.

She also had the experience of seeing, first hand, what is required of the office of president of the united states. We are fortunate to have a candidate who fully understands the job which she is campaigning for and will be more able to take office and get started than someone less informed about the responsibilities of the president.

Sitting in the passenger seat isn't the same as driving, and she may have had an office in the West Wing... along with how many hundreds of others?

You make it sound like this is all about Obama and Obama supporters trying to dis her experience, but if she had been honest about it to begin with this debate would never have happened. She's the one who tried to present herself as having this overwhelming amount of experience. She's the one who attacked Obama as "Naive and inexperienced." She's the one whose claims are over the top and, yes, based on taking credit for her husbands record.

If her husband hadn't been President previously she might have accomplished all the same things she has accomplished, and her record would be very noteworthy, but she wouldn't have been able to fool so many people into thinking she's the most experienced candidate out there.

Obama has relatively little experience as well. If experience was what it was all about then Richardson or Biden or Dodd would be the nominee.

Hillary has consistently tried to claim experience she aint got, and all of it based on experience her husband has.

And if it's sexist to hold her to the same standard as all the other candidates, to the same standard as any Presidentail spouse regardless of gender, then I guess I'm sexist.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:01:59 PM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

I'll try to explain this one more time. Hillary has never said she has experience being President of the United States, nor Governor of Arkansas -- that's not her claim. She has experience as First Lady of the United States and of Arkansas. That is her experience.

Now, some of you want to argue that if she claims she has experience as First Lady that means she's claiming responsibility for NAFTA and other bills signed by President Bill Clinton. And, if she says  she's not for NAFTA, it's not working, you argue that well she can't claim experience for the time she spent in the white house and not be for NAFTA???

This logic syllogism is so convoluted and nonsensical it hurts.

Let's keep it simple:

Hillary was first lady
 As first lady Hillary has experience
 As first lady Hillary worked to advance progressive causes.
 As first lady Hillary was married to Bill Clinton and got to see and hear the problems with which a president must deal.
 As first lady Hillary met with heads of state in other nations
 As first lady Hillary had a chief of staff and worked on the first lady's agenda of helping children, women, minorities and the sick.

As first lady Hillary was not the president
 As first lady Hillary was not responsible for all of the presidents actions

I am not trying to have anything "both ways" I am simply trying to get you to recognize the life and value of a woman. Being first lady is not a nonexistent and non-substantive position devoid of role and responsibility.

Hillary never says that she turned the economy around in the 90s...she says her husband did. She was a witness and confidant to him, and being smarter than all get out she saw how it could be done and wants to give America another shot at a great middle class and balanced budget.

I say "Thank God." After these past 7 years 2 months, I'll gladly vote Hillary Clinton back into the White House to save our economy and fight for the middle class and the sick and the disenfranchised. I've already seen what happens when someone votes in a guy who talks the "middle game" of compassionate conservatism...I want to elect someone that will do what she says she will, and not what he hopes he will.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

And what I'm trying to point out is that it was Hillary herself who billed herself as having all this overwhelming experience. Her experience as First Lady counts, but not nearly to the extent she's made it out to be.

She used her position as First Lady to promote the causes she cares about, just as almost all First Ladies do. She also met heads of state as all First Ladies do. She did some good work as First Lady, no question about it, but that doesn't justify her attacks on Obama or her insinuation that she's just overwhelmingly more experienced than he is.

She's the one who started this fight, not Obama nor Obama supporters. We are just trying to set the record straight. No-one thinks she was in a coma for 35 years, but her claims of being the most experienced candidate are vastly exaggerated. Even her claim to be so much more experienced than Obama is vastly exaggerated.

And her attacks on Obama for being "naive and inexperienced" are at least bordering on racism.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Your arguments are weak. BO is naive and inexperienced and it has nothing to do with his race.

Hillary Clinton has 35 years of experience fighting for progressive causes -- 8 in the senate, 8 in the white house, in the governors mansion, etc. etc.

She never claimed she was president of the united states -- she just understands the job better than most because she was confidant to a president.

Hillary has armed services and foreign relations experience, BO does not. We are a nation at war and we need a president who can begin, on day one, the process of undoing all the Bush damage. I want someone who will fight for the progressive agenda, will fight special interests like the Hawks of the GOP, insurance companies, and who is a true democrat.

It has been a long time since we've had a real democrat as president...even Bill was more centrist than I like. But, Hillary is a true progressive.

I'm sorry you don't understand how you discount women and their experience with your tortured logic about how she can't claim to have experience because she was first lady.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 03:18:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

If my arguments are so weak then you should be able to refute them without simply repeating your already well rebutted points.

And please stop putting words in my mouth. I realize you'ld prefer to argue against your own imagination rather than what I already said, but when you say things like, "I'm sorry you don't understand how you discount women and their experience with your tortured logic about how she can't claim to have experience because she was first lady." then you are just getting ridiculous.

I suggest you either go back and read what I actually said and respond to that, or just let it drop, but when you say things like that you are just making an ass of yourself.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 03:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Or you are.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Or to put it more succinctly. (none / 0)

They've both done a lot of good stuff in their lives, but it was Hillary who decided to frame this as if he's just this naive inexperienced upstart and she's the most experienced non-incumbent to have ever run.

But it just aint so.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Actually, Eleanor Roosevelt was the most involved First Lady in American history.  Because FDR could not travel easily, she was his eyes and ears in her many trips around the country.  


by mainelib on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:28:37 PM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

True. She really was the co-President. Hillary Clinton? Not so much.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 12:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

I learned about Mrs. Roosevelt in school.

And if you think Hillary was "number 2" in the Clinton administration then you're the one who must not have been an adult at that time.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Well, aside from your adolescent name-calling and junior high level jokes you did get one thing right--she was an active First Lady. I suppose your pointing that out would mean more, though, if I had ever claimed otherwise.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 04:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

No-one, not even the Clinton campaign, is claiming she was the best first lady. And nope, not demeaning her accomplishments, just setting the record straight.


by Mystylplx on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Freakin' unbelievable. BO supporters are the masters of deflection that's for sure.

Do we even have a measure of "best first ladies." Who evaluates and determines who is the best first lady and on what criteria?

I agree no one was claiming Hillary was the best first lady or bill the best president or anything of the sort because it is ridiculous. There is no standard of measuring the best anything...and considering how agenda driven Hillary's ladyship was  I'm sure she wouldn't fit well into the traditional categories of first lady grading.

Setting the record straight -- so silly.


by seattlegonz on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Hey, I was just responding to the comment above.

Try putting things in context, it will make it all so much more clear. The poster said that no-one was claiming Obama was the "best community organizer" so spew your infantile rant at that person.


by Mystylplx on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Excellent post.
Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:19:54 PM EST

How do you measure her statements in support (none / 0)

of NAFTA?


by illlaw1 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:30:08 PM EST

Re: How do you measure her statements in support (none / 0)

She was against it before she was for it?


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do you measure her statements in support (none / 0)

But now she's against it again, untill she's for it again.


by Mystylplx on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (2.00 / 1)

"Community organizer" means Barack was organizing labor while Hillary was selling them out via NAFTA.


by amiches on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 02:09:32 PM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

The quote in this diary from maymok could have been uttered, almost word for word, by me, except that I would have included one addition.  If the Clintons were more transparent with the records of the Clinton Presidency, such that we had solid proof of what Senator Clinton did and did not influence, then there'd be nothing to argue about, on this issue.  Her experience as First Lady is clouded in mystery.  Oh, for certain, we can take her and Bill's word for it, but for those of us who prefer, after the last seven years, to not risk being misled, I think actual documentation would go a good deal further.  

I recognize that Senator Clinton, without a doubt, was one of the two most influential First Ladies in US history.  There's no question about that.  But if she wants to claim these experiences, which do not carry the easily found paper trail of her Senate career, then greater transparency would be nice.

To label such criticisms as sexist is overreaching, at best.  If anything, by asking for evidence of her claims, I (and others like me) am giving her an opportunity to set herself apart from President Clinton's identity, and all the successes and failures that have come with it.    


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 03:10:07 PM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Oh, there's a public record...you don't see it  because you don't want. Read her remarks given at Bejing about women's rights being human rights.

There wasn't a cone of silence around Hillary...it's absurd to say she has no record as first lady. good lord, you guys really have a difficult time seeing this don't you?


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 03:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

No...I REALLY want to see it.  There's a PARTIAL public record.  But they've hidden the full account of her time in the White House.  Why the obfuscation?  If her experience is as strong as she claims from that period, why not show it?

Of course, the answers to these questions are simple.  The record of her time doesn't live up to her claims.  If it did, it wouldn't be withheld.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

You are too funny. Her entire record is public. The obfuscation is in the eyes of the BO lover.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Simply false.  

"After the President leaves office, the records are also not available to public access requests for five years, unless NARA has processed an integral file segment sooner than five years...At the end of the five year period, all Presidential records are subject to public access requests in accordance with the FOIA. However, for a period not to exceed 12 years from when the President leaves office, the President is authorized, but not required, to impose up to six Presidential restrictions (which must be imposed before the President leaves office and which are not subject to judicial review)."

http://www.archives.gov/presidential-lib raries/laws/access/pra-1978.html

President Clinton used this exemption to keep some written records pertaining to Senator Clinton (the First Lady) out of the public record until 2013...conveniently enough, just after she would have run for a second term, and too late for it to affect her candidacy.  He has the right to do so.  I'm not disputing that.  But in the interests of backing up her claims of experience, you'd think they'd want to wave this exemption...that is, IF the material backed up her claims.    


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Presidential library documents are not all there is to a public record. Go to any library -- look up on the internet -- there is an extensive public record of Hillary Clinton actions during the time she was First Lady of Arkansas and of the United States.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/about/firs tlady/

It is "simply false" to imply that there has been hiding away and erasing from public consciousness the things she did while First Lady. The record is extensive, and it is public.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

"The record is extensive..."

Agreed.

"...and it is public."

Partially agreed.  Some of it is public.  Other parts have been exempted by President Clinton from public consumption.  Had they not been exempted, they would have been public about two years ago.  

If you go back and read my initial comment, you'll note that I say she was certainly among the most influential First Ladies in history.  I'm not claiming her time in the White House was one that does not contribute to her experience.  But if she wants to claim the experience of the Clinton Presidency, then I'd appreciate them (him) making transparent the entire record so that we, the voting public, can give those records and her time as First Lady the weight they deserve.  Clinton lovers seem to want her to be given the full weight of the office and all of the positives that came out of the Clinton Admin.  Clinton haters want to claim that being First Lady isn't a valid part of her resume.  I want transparency, so that I can give her the credit she deserves, and hold her to the truth if she campaigns on credit she doesn't deserve.  These are public records of a Presidency.  In making our judgment of Hillary Clinton's experience, they are important.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:57:30 PM EST

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Well, she's not claiming "the experience of the Clinton presidency." So your argument is false. You don't need the records of Bill Clinton's presidency in order to evaluate Hillary Clinton's candidacy.

She's claiming that for 35 years she has been fighting to get health care to those who need it, for equal rights for all regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, class or "ability." And, if you look at her record over those 35 years, all the jobs she's had and the roles she's played, there is substantive proof that when she says she believes universal health care is a core democratic principle  and a moral responsibility -- she means it. When she talks about equality for all, she means it. The point is -- she has her own experience in the white house and the governor's mansion, and the senate, and the children's defense fund. And, her record is public -- I'm telling you, go to the library. Check it out. She's done a great deal.


by seattlegonz on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

Semantics.  If you don't think that her "35 years of experience" implicitly includes her time as First Lady, then you have a very different perception of that experience than most Americans.  And since that material is being withheld...

Beyond that, I'm not in the least bit questioning the sincerity of her principles.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:31:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How do we measure experience? (none / 0)

What? Of course it includes her time as First Lady of Arkansas and the White House. But presidential records are not the records of the First Lady.

Hillary's record -- the things she's fighting for, her agenda, her experience are all readily available. They are also distinct and unique from her husband Bill Clinton. That doesn't erase her time as First Lady, it doesn't discount it. I really don't get why this is so difficult to understand.

President Bill Clinton has a presidential record -- you can like things he did, not like them, think he was great, or think he was a jerk. That is his record.

Hillary was his wife. That does not make her responsible for him and his presidency. It makes her responsible for herself and her record as First Lady. If you look at her record as first lady you'll find it to be quite impressive, and activist. Look at her record, look at her experience as First Lady...that's all you need to do. And, look at BO;s record while you're at it. Compare their records, their experience.


by seattlegonz on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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